Dirty fork oil syndrome

Tuning and maintenance of forks, shocks, etc.

Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby JoeMaico » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:35 am

I would never separate the tubes, without also replacing the seals. But, I agree, one could and hope that it doesn’t start leaking on you. If mine starts leaking in a few hours, then maybe that is what they did. You can see the top of the tubes fairly easy without separating them. Did they use some form of inspection scope to get down inside and photograph the internal detail? I do not know. Nor do I know what constituted the “inspection”. All I was told was that they were inspected and photographed. It is my assumption that the tubes were not separated, and I assume that was based on the quality of the oil – after such a few hours since the last replacement. The contaminated springs, are/were contaminated with grease/oil from the factory. That is what Beta told me – and they were most prevalent on the 2016 models. The solution (as described by Beta) was a thorough cleaning of the springs, tubes, and internal components at the first oil change. Did my dealer do that? I do not think so, because it was not mentioned.

To satisfy my own piece of mind, I had already decided to drain some of the oil out of the outer tubes before I take it back in again. If it looks like a Chocolate Malt again, and the Dealer says he ‘inspected” it and found that the oil was as clean as the last time they replaced it – then we will know one of us is not telling the truth. I will give them the benefit of the doubt until then. Still, as I have said before, I do not see a lot of web traffic complaining about the issue. If there were, then I would have expected Beta to have issued some TSB or something describing the issue and the resolution (no matter what it was). But, other than this thread, it is remarkably quiet. Perhaps it is as others have suggested, working on your own bikes is a lost art.

Twowheels, I think you made a pretty safe bet. I also expect the fluid to resemble something other than fork oil after 25 hours or so. The bigger unknown, is what will be the Dealer’s (and possibly Beta’s) response. We shall see.

joe
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby bikesparky » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:51 pm

Just a "thing" I want to point out!

Everyone is focused on the dirty oil and that's fair enough as it's a give away and shows the root of the problem.
However, riding wise the problem is excessive play in the forks as a result from the wear.
As an easy test, put the bike on a stand and wiggle the front forks front to back at the axle as you would do to inspect worn head stem bearings.
I also spotted the issue while rocking the bike back and forth with the front brake in.
If there is play and the bearings are fine there is a problem!
I could move the forks on my bike a fair bit and when putting my hand at the seal I could feel the movement.
An easier initial test compared to removing forks and draining oil.

I also felt that in the handling going backwards compared to when it was new.
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby Enmerdeur » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:38 pm

bikesparky wrote:Just a "thing" I want to point out!

Everyone is focused on the dirty oil and that's fair enough as it's a give away and shows the root of the problem.
However, riding wise the problem is excessive play in the forks as a result from the wear.
As an easy test, put the bike on a stand and wiggle the front forks front to back at the axle as you would do to inspect worn head stem bearings.
I also spotted the issue while rocking the bike back and forth with the front brake in.
If there is play and the bearings are fine there is a problem!
I could move the forks on my bike a fair bit and when putting my hand at the seal I could feel the movement.
An easier initial test compared to removing forks and draining oil.

I also felt that in the handling going backwards compared to when it was new.


Was this after replacing the bushings in the forks with new ones?
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby bikesparky » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:27 am

Enmerdeur wrote:
Was this after replacing the bushings in the forks with new ones?


When the forks were taken apart the bushes turned out as new despite the play.
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby JoeMaico » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:28 am

Bikesparky, what was the final solution from Beta? It was all done under Warranty. Did they just replace the tubes (upper and lower), and reuse everything else? Or, did they just send you a complete set of new 2017 forks? And, how long did the process take from the time you delivered your forks to your dealer, until the time you received the final solution? Was it weeks, or months?

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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby dirtbird » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:25 am

Today I reopened the set of Sachs cc forks I completely teared down few days ago.
When I did them, not only I seperated the tubes ( i renewed seals and bushes) but I did a complete cleaning up to the point to remove the adjusters' needles and all valving.
The only thing i didn't was to remove the axle lugs to clean the bottoming piece but I did use enough solvent and paper to remove almost all of the sludge that was there.
So the forks were ridden for 8 hours and were returned to try some new settings.

To my surprise, oil was black and only the left close chamber's oil was in the procces... but not black yet.

Although anodising is not perfect I think that is not responsible for this rapid - visual at least- aging of the oil.
In my golden forks I didn' t noticed oil aging, just only anodising wear.
Maybe its the springs but again 8-10 hours its too early.
What caught my attention is the center part of the cartridge. Externallly It looks like it is bare aluminum with no surface treatment - or no proper- and if I thats the case , this can promote oil oxidisation.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby bikesparky » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:21 pm

JoeMaico wrote:Bikesparky, what was the final solution from Beta? It was all done under Warranty. Did they just replace the tubes (upper and lower), and reuse everything else? Or, did they just send you a complete set of new 2017 forks? And, how long did the process take from the time you delivered your forks to your dealer, until the time you received the final solution? Was it weeks, or months?

joe


Fork tubes, upper and lower replaced under warranty. Also new oil, bushes and seals as expected with a full rebuild.
The cartridges and all the other bits were inspected and deemed OK.

Send them away to the dealer first week of January who inspected them the day after they arrived. Then after some conflicting information I talked to the importer and he instantly ordered the parts from Italy.
The parts arrived in the country within a week and took a week to get to the dealer. Unfortunately the dealer had a few dramas with storms, flooding in the area and power outages.
The forks are not back yet and it's nearing 2 months.
Luckily I found a set of KYBs out of an Italian Husky and they fitted straight in, so I'm riding those and to be fair they are better.

So all up the final solution was decided in within days upon getting the correct information.
Getting parts from Italy to Australia and then couriered up here was always going to take a week or two.
Since I got the KYBs I told the dealer to take his time as he had a bit of drama with the weather.
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby Enmerdeur » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:51 pm

bikesparky wrote:
Enmerdeur wrote:
Was this after replacing the bushings in the forks with new ones?


When the forks were taken apart the bushes turned out as new despite the play.


My guess is the tubes were out of spec to begin with. Hard to believe that the tubes would be worn out without the bushings also being hammered
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby dirtbird » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:33 am

Something I didn't gave much thought before.
The spot that I noticed wear on the golden uppers does not comes into play under normal operation.
So the wear may occured when under servicing the forks were overextended or the -only one- time when I separated them.
I didn't heated them up but I did used the MP susp vise to hold them and pulled them uniformly and they did came apart easy .

So in any case it seems that their anodising is more sensitive than other forks, so always heat them up before separation.
'10 RR450, '11 RR450, '12 RR498, '13 RR300, '13 RR300 Racing, '14 RR250/300 Racing - all gone
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Re: Dirty fork oil syndrome

Postby Glenn » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:10 pm

Hi guys for clarity is it all Sachs forks or forks on earlier models please.
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