Dirty fork oil syndrome

[JoeMaico]

So as to not to continue hijacking another user’s thread (Settings or valving issue), I decided to start a separate thread dealing with the 2016 Sachs CC Forks. More specifically, the dirty fork oil syndrome in the outer fork cartridge that some of us are experiencing. I have seen responses from bikesparky and twowheels, indicating that they have had the same dirty oil experience as I have had. I am wondering, who else has had these issues? And, have there been any reported dirty fork oil issues on the 2017 Closed Cartridge forks?

As I stated in my earlier post (in the afore mentioned thread), I do not have the luxury of getting it repaired/replaced under warranty. So, for those that have had them repaired under warranty – what was the solution? Did the factory replace the lower and/or upper fork legs? Did they replace all of the other outer cartridge valving components as well? Or, did they just ship you the new 2017 CC Forks that are 5mm longer?

I will need to replace/repair the forks at some time during the season, and I am trying to figure out the best approach. If the inner coatings of the lower leg are the root cause and the only issue, then I may just be able to purchase the lower legs and the outer cartridge valving components and replace everything that is bad. If the issue is with both fork tubes (upper and lower), then it may just be best to throw in the towel and buy the complete 2107 CC fork set from BetaUSA. But, I do not want to do that if the 2017’s have the same issue as the 2016’s.

So, input from those that have experienced, and resolved the issue, would be appreciated.

joe

[Marty Moose]

SSS Forks would be cheaper.

[bikesparky]

Mine had it from new and continued to do so after 3 oil changes.
Issue is the hard coating on the inside of the outer tube wears out prematurely and contaminates the oil on the outside (not in the cc).
This wears out all the rest including the chrome on the inner tube.

On my forks both are worn beyond repair and are getting replaced under warranty.
Following a suspension expert (not my words). if you catch it early it is possible to re-coat the inside of the outer tube BEFORE the aluminium itself starts to wear. Hard anodizing or Kashima coating will restore this. However if the aluminium is worn out, it's too late as no coating will fix that.
I had plenty of play when rocking the bike with the front brake on and when I put it on a stand I could feel it when I pulled and pushed on the forks near the axle. It felt similar to when the head stock bearing are worn.

If you notice contaminated oil get on it as fast as possible! When the wear is past the coating the tubes are scrap.
I'm not criticizing Beta as the bike is really good and also the support I get from the importer and dealers it tops, but they really need to get on to their suppliers!! All the problems people have is due to outside manufactured parts, e.g.: Brake lines, O-rings, forks and recent rectifiers-regulators.

This CC sachs fork looks like a (cheap) KYB SSS copy (yes, compare both) without the floating piston of the KYB. In my opinion Sachs told Beta "we can make this also and it will be cheaper".

Not good!!!!

[twowheels]

So as to not to continue hijacking another user’s thread (Settings or valving issue), I decided to start a separate thread dealing with the 2016 Sachs CC Forks. More specifically, the dirty fork oil syndrome in the outer fork cartridge that some of us are experiencing. I have seen responses from bikesparky and twowheels, indicating that they have had the same dirty oil experience as I have had. I am wondering, who else has had these issues? And, have there been any reported dirty fork oil issues on the 2017 Closed Cartridge forks?

As I stated in my earlier post (in the afore mentioned thread), I do not have the luxury of getting it repaired/replaced under warranty. So, for those that have had them repaired under warranty – what was the solution? Did the factory replace the lower and/or upper fork legs? Did they replace all of the other outer cartridge valving components as well? Or, did they just ship you the new 2017 CC Forks that are 5mm longer?

I will need to replace/repair the forks at some time during the season, and I am trying to figure out the best approach. If the inner coatings of the lower leg are the root cause and the only issue, then I may just be able to purchase the lower legs and the outer cartridge valving components and replace everything that is bad. If the issue is with both fork tubes (upper and lower), then it may just be best to throw in the towel and buy the complete 2107 CC fork set from BetaUSA. But, I do not want to do that if the 2017’s have the same issue as the 2016’s.

So, input from those that have experienced, and resolved the issue, would be appreciated.

joe

We have resolved the issue with hard-coating the upper legs. If you're able to strip them down and ship them to us it's a straight forward process provided the legs are not too damaged to begin with.

I'm anxious to see if the 2017s experience the same issue, as the lower triple has changed from previous years.

[JoeMaico]

Thanks for the responses.

My first stop is to my local dealer and see if he will honor a warranty for a known issue - even though I am 5 months out of warranty period.

My next stop will be with Beta USA to see if they will stand behind their product.

Assuming I get no resolution form either of the first two, then I need to decide which way to go. I will pull the forks off and look at the inner tubes of the anodized legs. What should I look for? Or rather, what will I see if they are beyond repair? I assume I should see some red anodizing left, and if I see nothing but aluminum color, that probably tells me they have gone too far. Let me know. Twowheels, assuming there are not beyond repair, you just need the the upper anodized legs sent to you - correct? Also, has your experience been that if the upper anodizing is somewhat still in tact, the chrome on the lower leg is still serviceable? What about the valving in the lower leg? Have you found that if it is caught early enough, the valving components are also still serviceable?

Marty, I am not against going to a completely different fork set up. But, I want exact Form, Fit, and Function. Meaning, I do not want to be milling on my triple clamps or lower fork leg assemblies, or coming up with some funky spacing arrangements to get get it all to work. Are the KYB SSS Forks a simple 'plug and play' replacement? If so, what is the model number of the replacement? Or, do i just go down to my local Yamaha dealer and say I need a set of forks for a 2015 YZ 250?

Interestingly, I do not see a lot of responses from other riders experiencing the same issue. I find it hard to believe that only twowheels, bikesparky, and myself have experienced this issue. It makes me wonder if others are just chalking it up to normal wear and tear. Or, perhaps their dealers resolved the issue before they took delivery (very doubtful). Otherwise, I guess we are the only three unlucky individuals who got lemons.

joe

[BDM]

I find this thread a little confusing.
In my experience, in every fork I'm aware of the aluminum outer and the ground chrome inner never touch as they ride on replaceable bushings, in this case 2 per fork leg (some past WP forks used 3 bushings per leg).
In the case of my 16 500RS Sachs OC they are shown as items 2 & 8 in the assembly drawing and labeled as "Bushings". These bushings are typically made of a low friction alloy which is much softer than the chrome surface they ride on, and are designed to be replaceable wear parts. The bushings are fixed in the aluminum outer with the chrome inner sliding on the bushing's ID surface. The overwhelming vast majority of motorcycle fork aluminum sliders/stanchions have no anodized hard surface coating on their ID, because none should be needed.

I would get it if folks were saying that the bushings are to soft and wear prematurely or that the the chromed plated finish on steel inner is failing due to the bushings being too hard or the chrome plating job being of poor quality. Another possible location for wear/contamination would be the cartridge (19) to damping rod (#21) interface, but again there is a plastic like guide on the rod's shaft and a bushing/ring on the piston, which prevent any metal on metal contact. Fork oil contamination should by and large only be the result of wear of these replaceable bushings and guides with a little contribution by fork spring contact with the steel inner's ID.

I don't get how/where some are saying the problem is contact wear directly on the aluminum outer's ID that needs to be prevented by aftermarket hard coat anodizing????

Bruce

[Mikhail]

I have the oil very dirty as well. I have installed Ohlins ttx22 cartridges into the OC Sachs tubes (2016 RR 300). I suspect it is inner spring interacting with inner tube inner surface...am I right? Is that an issue?

[Enmerdeur]

I find this thread a little confusing.
In my experience, in every fork I'm aware of the aluminum outer and the ground chrome inner never touch as they ride on replaceable bushings, in this case 2 per fork leg (some past WP forks used 3 bushings per leg).
In the case of my 16 500RS Sachs OC they are shown as items 2 & 8 in the assembly drawing and labeled as "Bushings". These bushings are typically made of a low friction alloy which is much softer than the chrome surface they ride on, and are designed to be replaceable wear parts. The bushings are fixed in the aluminum outer with the chrome inner sliding on the bushing's ID surface. The overwhelming vast majority of motorcycle fork aluminum sliders/stanchions have no anodized hard surface coating on their ID, because none should be needed.

I would get it if folks were saying that the bushings are to soft and wear prematurely or that the the chromed plated finish on steel inner is failing due to the bushings being too hard or the chrome plating job being of poor quality. Another possible location for wear/contamination would be the cartridge (19) to damping rod (#21) interface, but again there is a plastic like guide on the rod's shaft and a bushing/ring on the piston, which prevent any metal on metal contact. Fork oil contamination should by and large only be the result of wear of these replaceable bushings and guides with a little contribution by fork spring contact with the steel inner's ID.

I don't get how/where some are saying the problem is contact wear directly on the aluminum outer's ID that needs to be prevented by aftermarket hard coat anodizing????

Bruce

Bruce I would have to agree with you. Something doesn't make sense here unless the bushings are wearing completely down and rubbing on the upper tubes or are made of some harder material.

[dirtbird]

I find this thread a little confusing.
In my experience, in every fork I'm aware of the aluminum outer and the ground chrome inner never touch as they ride on replaceable bushings, in this case 2 per fork leg (some past WP forks used 3 bushings per leg).
In the case of my 16 500RS Sachs OC they are shown as items 2 & 8 in the assembly drawing and labeled as "Bushings". These bushings are typically made of a low friction alloy which is much softer than the chrome surface they ride on, and are designed to be replaceable wear parts. The bushings are fixed in the aluminum outer with the chrome inner sliding on the bushing's ID surface. The overwhelming vast majority of motorcycle fork aluminum sliders/stanchions have no anodized hard surface coating on their ID, because none should be needed.

I would get it if folks were saying that the bushings are to soft and wear prematurely or that the the chromed plated finish on steel inner is failing due to the bushings being too hard or the chrome plating job being of poor quality. Another possible location for wear/contamination would be the cartridge (19) to damping rod (#21) interface, but again there is a plastic like guide on the rod's shaft and a bushing/ring on the piston, which prevent any metal on metal contact. Fork oil contamination should by and large only be the result of wear of these replaceable bushings and guides with a little contribution by fork spring contact with the steel inner's ID.

I don't get how/where some are saying the problem is contact wear directly on the aluminum outer's ID that needs to be prevented by aftermarket hard coat anodizing????

Bruce

Bruce I would have to agree with you. Something doesn't make sense here unless the bushings are wearing completely down and rubbing on the upper tubes or are made of some harder material.

Hey guys.... no matter how soft an alloy would be, if you start sliding up & down 50 times per minute against another metal, sooon it will be history.
On those bushings, the sliding side is teflon (or whatever) coated. Even if you don't see wear on it (eg. tiny spots were metal is visible) still its good to replace them after time (eg. 100 hours) because even this coating gets compressed and... thinner.

[Enmerdeur]

Hey guys.... no matter how soft an alloy would be, if you start sliding up & down 50 times per minute against another metal, sooon it will be history.
On those bushings, the sliding side is teflon (or whatever) coated. Even if you don't see wear on it (eg. tiny spots were metal is visible) still its good to replace them after time (eg. 100 hours) because even this coating gets compressed and... thinner.

Understood but we are not talking metal to metal (unless these bushings are wearing uber fast). From what we can gather these forks seem to be wearing out faster than normal.